Wo knows this person

[Sweany]

Hi everybody

I have a question it is of topic but i'm looking for a person who has something to with fischertechnik.

(I did remove the name out of respect)

Does anybody know him?

Grts Marchel
fischertechnikclub Nedeland

[Dirk Fox]

Hi Sweany,

a short search discovers that a (Ich habe hier jetzt auch mal vorsichtshalber den Namen entfernt. ModeratorRalf ) published a request for contact in the FAN Club News in 1999, address included:
https://docs.fischertechnikclub.nl/fanc ... 1999-1.pdf

Regards,
Dirk

[Sweany]

Thanks

Sorry he did not mention that, and i could not find it.

Grts Marchel

[Dirk Fox]

Hope it helps - and the contact information is still valid...

Regards,
Dirk

[Sweany]

Little problem he is trying to close our library and the fischerwerke fanclub archive, and some other websites who have fischertechnik documents online.
He is doing that whit the privacy law in his hands, he demands the removal of every document which has an address in it.
It's a pity this is happening.
All documents will be lost for a long period now.
Probably this is also happening for the datenbank be warned in advance.

[Dirk Fox]

Don't panik - he can at worst request to remove his own address from the public.
(One could even have reasonable doubts about this, because his address was published in a journal at his own request.)
But, anyhow, you can heal this by wiping out his address from the afore mentioned issue of the fan club news.
In any case: he can't claim this for other individuals.

Best regards,
Dirk

[Sweany]

No the problems are huge, fischerwerke already did order us to shut down all sections which contain books whit addresses.
We and also you have to follow the copyright laws and out blanking is not possible if you do not have the rights of a document.
If you make any change in a document there are huge punishments for doing so, in the worst case completely shut down of the website, that is also why every document scanned by me is not reworked.
The fischertechnikclub Nederland follows the law about that.
fischerwerke did not forbit it but it is not allowed, and they are right if they do so they are the owner of the rights, that is also why it wonders me other websites are doing it, just like documents in the datenbank if there is any change made that can be fatal for the document ore even for the website.
fischerwerke has to give us the right to out blank the addresses to do so if not they are lost for a long period.

[sven]

HalloI!

Das ist alles sehr schade.
Kann man nicht einfach die Bibliothek NL und die ftdb mit Passwortschutz versehen?
Dann ist das nicht mehr öffentlich.
Das Passwort bekommen eben die bekannten Leute und können die DB und die Bibliothek weiter nutzen.

Gruß
sven

[Sweany]

No the problem stays the addresses are not allowed to be in any kind of way be published on the internet.
If it is behind a secure password website you still can download it and send it to everybody you want ore post it on any website you want.
And there lays the problem.
That is also why fischerwerke them self have to remove them from there fan club archive.

That is what we wanted to do with our own Dutch fischertechnikclub Nederland magazine to publish it as it is but also that was not allowed on a secure environment for our members.
So there are all addresses, email and phone numbers blanked out by me.
Only not in the 2017 copies, these 2 will follow shortly.
We only could do that because we own the rights ourselves.

Nein das Problem bleibt die Adressen dürfen in keiner Weise im Internet veröffentlicht werden.
Wenn es sich hinter einer sicheren Passwort-Website befindet, können Sie es trotzdem herunterladen und an alle senden, die Sie möchten, oder es auf einer beliebigen Website veröffentlichen.
Und da liegt das Problem.
Deshalb müssen die fischerwerke sie auch selbst aus ihrem Fanclub-Archiv entfernen.

Das wollten wir mit unserem eigenen niederländischen fischertechnikclub Nederland Magazin machen, um es so zu veröffentlichen, wie es ist, aber auch das war in einer sicheren Umgebung für unsere Mitglieder nicht erlaubt.
Es sind also alle Adressen, E-Mail und Telefonnummern von mir ausgeblendet.
Nur nicht in den 2017er Exemplaren, diese 2 folgen in Kürze.
Das konnten wir nur, weil wir die Rechte selbst besitzen.
Translation by google

[EstherM]

Dear Marcel,
I sympathize with you on this problem. You are maintaining the library on a voluntary basis, and then somebody threatens you to take legal action.

He is doing that whit the privacy law in his hands, he demands the removal of every document which has an address in it.

He can demand a lot. The question is whether his demands are reasonable.

But, anyhow, you can heal this by wiping out his address from the afore mentioned issue of the fan club news.
In any case: he can't claim this for other individuals.

This sounds like a reasonable and knowledgable advice to me.

We and also you have to follow the copyright laws and out blanking is not possible if you do not have the rights of a document.

Are you sure, that you can't publish the fanclub magazines without the page containing the adresses? The authorship lis owned by fischertechnik and the granted the Dutch club and the German ftc Modellbau e.V. the right to use the material. Does this licence mean somewhere that each document has to include every single page of the original? I would assume not. Therefore, wiping out the affected page of the document which mentions this guy would be an easy solution, but also mean some work.
If this is an issue with the Dutch law, the board of the ftc Modellbau e.V. might evaluate the options of hosting the fanclub magazines on our website.

We got some requests to remove names on the website, which we did. We have also removed some pictures of persons on their request. However, we also were asked to remove an image taken at a convention where two men are standing in the background. This image is still on the website. We have never heard back from the person making the request. (Thanks!).
No panic!

Cheers
Esther

[Sweany]

His demands are legal that is for sure.
Everybody can do that even if it is not you're name, and that is not the problem for me.

Even the ft pedia can have these trouble if there is an outsider who wants you to remove email addresses you have to do so, that is the privacy law everybody can make a complained with that law in his hands, and maybe they are right that is not for me to decide.
Only if you have in writing from the person from who is the address ore the eamil that he finds it ok to publice than you do not have to remove it.

He guys and of course girls that is the united Europe nothing is possible any more, there are about 500 people in Brussel who are making our lives for some things miserable.

But the problem now is that fischerwerke demands us to shut down parts of the website without a solution.
An can also do that by every website who has documents from them on there website even if it was allowed.
Maybe we have to search as e team for a solution to solve this problem for the future so we have the right to make a change to blank out a address ore email address.

Yes i know you are removing parts, but that is not allowed in the copyright law just read it then you will understand that nothing is allowed.
Karl Tillmetz is/was reworking the fronts of the instructions that is also illegal and not allowed if somebody makes a complained about that you have to remove that document.
You can make changes but you most have a written declaration from fischerwerke that they allow you to make changes, if you do not have these decelerations nothing is possibly ore allowed, and that is all for about 100 years now.

It's not me who makes these laws, just read them.
I will further not discus this i did read all these laws about 12 years ago when i was starting the library for the Dutch fischertechnikclub.
We will follow these laws as they are written, and are not making any interpretation of our own, ore do something and say o we will see who will complain.
In Germany they are almost the same as in the Netherlands so there is no difference.

Grts Marchel

[fishfriend]

Hallo...
Ich muss noch mal nachfragen, ob ich das richtig verstanden habe.
Bearbeitete "Dokumente" wo die Namen usw. gelöscht werden und ft die rechte hat, dürfen nicht mehr veröffentlicht werden?

Selbst wenn fischertechnik die Änderung zulassen würde, ist es per Gesetzt nicht erlaubt?

Mal eine blöde Frage. Gibt es ein "Verfallsdatum" ? Also, wo man dann es wieder komplett veröffentlichen könnte?
Was ist z.B. mit Erben? Können die verlangen, dass ein Name des Vaters gelöscht wird?
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
fishfriend
Holger Howey

PS WIrd die Welt verrückter? Das Zusammenführen von Information, sollte stärker eingeschränkt werden, nicht die Information selbst.
Wenn Gesichtserkennung von Firmen gemacht wird und andere Bilder, mit dieser Information versehen wird, finde ich das sehr fragwürdig.
Wie will man persönliche Rechte einfordern, wenn z.B. von der Fanclub News auch JPGs exsistieren, die aber im Ausland gespeichert sind?
Beispielsweise auch in deutschen Archiven, wo auch digitalisierte Medien existieren.
Kann man wirklich, eine Leserzuschrift, mit der bitte um veröffentlichung, nachträglich löschen lassen - nur weil sie statt analog, also in gedruckter Form, nun als scann vorliegt? Ich denke da auch an Microfilm und co.

Um das nochmal Klarzustellen. Ich meine nicht das Recht was personenbezogene Daten angeht. Ich habe es zweimal mitbekommen wo Namen von Leuten auf Listen auftauchten, die niemals dort auftauchen durften. Die genannte PDF ist ja durchsuchbar, wenn man die Seiten löscht oder Teile davon als JPG ersetzt sollte es doch gut sein.

[Sweany]

Every document on what ever kind of way it is stored in paper on floppy, USB, digital, microfilm are all protected by the same laws.
One of these is the copyright law.

Standard duration is 75 years after that the copyright is over for most of the documents.

But if you have a written declaration of the copyright holder that you can make changes you can publish them without restrictions.
But almost no copyright holder gives there rights away.


Jedes Dokument, egal wie es in Papierform auf Diskette, USB, digital oder Mikrofilm gespeichert wird, ist durch die gleichen Gesetze geschützt.
Eine davon ist das Urheberrecht.

Die Standarddauer beträgt 75 Jahre, danach ist das Urheberrecht für die meisten Dokumente abgelaufen.

Wenn Sie jedoch eine schriftliche Erklärung des Rechteinhabers haben, dass Sie Änderungen vornehmen können, können Sie diese ohne Einschränkungen veröffentlichen.
Aber fast kein Urheberrechtsinhaber verschenkt dort Rechte.
Translation by google

[H.A.R.R.Y.]

Hello out there,

Standard duration is 75 years after that the copyright is over for most of the documents.

If I got this right in the past, then those 75 years start to count down with the death of the author, not the publish date - at least here in Germany.

But almost no copyright holder gives there rights away.

With German laws you simply cannot give your Urheberrecht away. There are other countries around the world where things are different. But you could put a license to the document and release it (maybe limited to a specific version) to public usage, the very same way you give some GPL license to SW code.

And honestly, I think some aspects are not covered here. What is about content that already has been provided to the public (and including those addresses) BEFORE those laws got released? Is there some kind of Bestandsschutz or are now, after releasing the laws, all sites hosting such plain old stuff immediately blamed to be illegal and criminal?

E. g.: What about Depatisnet or Espacenet (those sites where you can check for patent applications and likewise content)? There are lots of patent applications that still give full names and addresses of the inventors to the world wide public! With the new laws such sites are criminal also according to your explanations.

Personally I think that with some publications (like this Fan-Club News cited above) the author gave his name and address to the public on his own will and to get his address published. So she / he already agreed to the publication. It has been long ago and now there is the possibility of reaching a way broader audience with it. In this case it seems really strange to me to now come up and require to take this document off the public. And: The copyright to the full document is at fischerwerke (fischertechnik as a subsidiary?) so it is fischer and no one else who could claim for revoking the document from the public.

It is okay to change ones mind and revert a decision. But, well this might not yield true for some european bureaucrazies, we all know that some decisions are not reversible and when taken they are taken. First think on all aspects and consequences, then take your decision and live with it. I hope this friendly guy causing the discussion also reads here ...

Regards H.A.R.R.Y.

[Sweany]

copyright law in the Netherlands is from 1903.

[sven]

Hallo!

Personally I think that with some publications (like this Fan-Club News cited above) the author gave his name and address to the public on his own will and to get his address published. So she / he already agreed to the publication. It has been long ago and now there is the possibility of reaching a way broader audience with it. In this case it seems really strange to me to now come up and require to take this document off the public.

Genau so denke ich auch.
Wenn man eine Kleinanzeige, nichts anderes ist das ja ein diesem Fall, in eine Zeitung, Zeitschrift, Internet, ... setzt, dann stimmt man ja zu das die Daten die man angibt da auch erscheinen. Sonst ist man ja nicht erreichbar.
Damit ist doch eigentlich die Zustimmung erfolgt.
Was ich auch als nicht richtig ansehen, ist die Tatsache das deswegen die komplette Ausgabe der FCN verschwinden soll, bzw. alle.
Finde es sehr merkwürdig, das es nicht ausreicht den Anzeigenteil zu schwärzen. Der ist ja eh uninteressant, weil die Anzeigen ja alt sind.

Aber nun gut, letztendlich ist es nicht zu ändern. Denke aber das wohl alle von uns die Ausgaben alle haben.
Ansonsten gibts ja immer noch den Bereich "Suche" hier im Forum ...

Gruß
sven

[Sweany]

Ok for all which do not have all the copies also the old clubhefte from 1968 till 1979 has to go offline.
We most remove in total about 250 documents, this weekend i'm going to make a list of which parts have to be removed.
Sometimes a clubheft can stay because there are no addresses in it, but no idea on this moment which ones.
It affects German, Dutch and Englisch documents.

[MasterOfGizmo]

Don't panik - he can at worst request to remove his own address from the public.

He can request you to obey the law. And that prevents you from just publishing any personal information on the internet. To do so legally you need to meet a lot of legal standards incl. all the privacy laws like DSGVO. And this is not possible without explicit consent of everyone who's personal information is involved. Address information is such personal information. And since you are doing this with fischertechniks explicit permission they are liable as well being the source of that information. They weren't allowed at all to give you the permission to redistribute this personal information.

(One could even have reasonable doubts about this, because his address was published in a journal at his own request.)

He agreed to have his address published in limited paper form many years ago before the internet existed in today's form and before the privacy laws existed in today's form. You cannot simply transfer this permission into the internet age. And even if you can, it was fischertechnik who had this permission, not you.

But, anyhow, you can heal this by wiping out his address from the aforementioned issue of the fan club news.

You also cannot do that. But for copyright reasons. Fischertechnik has the copyright. Even if they gave you the permission for redistribution of these documents you aren't allowed to alter them. You need the copyright holders permission to re-publish modified content. And you might e.g. be forced to replace or remove the original copyright and add your own or the like,

If fischertechnik would allow this then they'd still face two problems:
- You could make incomplete changes and addresses would still be visible or could e.g. be extracted from underneath a blacked region. Then fischertechnik could still be liable as you still publish information they must not have given you in the first place
- You could make things worse, (accidentally) adding additional wrong or illegal content

So they basically cannot allow you to publish these documents even in modified form. They could do the necessary changes themselves and then give you the permission to distribute that new document. But they'd still risk to leave traces of personal information in those documents. So it's understandable that they won't do that.

In any case: he can't claim this for other individuals.

Yes he can. For above reasons.

[rhglomb]

Could this be the same person that is responsible for the closing of the fischertechnik-museeum.ch ?

@ftc-team: could we expect the ft-db to be the next site in focus ?

Unfortunately arcive.is does not archive PDF-Documents ........

[MasterOfGizmo]

Just remove the Fan Club News and you should be fine. Or has ft demanded to take down other documents as well?