Incline Elevator

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Incline Elevator

Beitragvon Codex » 23 Jul 2017, 16:26

Hi Everyone,

I built the Incline Elevator but I am having trouble with the electronic controls. I am using the picture in the catalog 1975-39004 page 15.

I tried a few wiring circuits but have not got it to work correctly.

The way I see it operating is as follows. It should stop when it reaches each end; then when you push one of the buttons it should proceed to the other end and stop.

I have found in document 39543b Hobby 4 Band 3, page 62. This uses two Elecktronik-Grundbaustein and two Relais-Baustein, whereas the picture in the catalog shows only one of each baustein.

Does anyone, know where I can find a document that shows how to wire it up where it uses one of each baustein? Or can any one provide some assistance please.

Thanks
Michael :D
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inclindelevator.jpg
catalog 1975-39004 page 15
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon steffalk » 23 Jul 2017, 22:01

Hello Michael!

A *very* good question, indeed! I would like to join you and build this model also ;-) A few thoughts:

- There are light barriers at both ends. The carrier itself does not contain a lamp (as is used in the l-e1 manual for a similar model).

- There are only 2 relays with amplifier (h4RB) used. I would guess each of them is controlled by one of the light barriers.

- Of both relays, all 3 contacts of the top switch are used, but only 2 (the working contact) of the lower switch.

- I see 1 button underneath the electronic modules.

- So I guess the top switches of the 2 relays are connected with their center contact to one of the motor poles each, and the working and non-working contacts (on the right of the module) are connected to + and -, resp. Thus, exactly if 1 of the 2 relays is "working", the motor turns, and its direction is determined by which of the 2 relays is "working" (I don't know the correct English wording for that). This is an XOR-like behavior.

- Further, I would guess that the 2 lower switches of the 2 relays are used in some self-hindering circuit. The photo cells are connected to the relays inputs via their lower switch. Thus, when a light barrier is interrupted, the relays falls off, and it stays off even if the wagon has left the light barrier region. The motor continues to turn until the other barrier gets interrupted.

- The button should have some bridging functionality and turn on a relay even if its light barrier is interrupted. This point is my weakest, as I have not yet analyzed how, exactly, this one button could be wired in order to have the correct effect on both relays.

All this is pure theory just from watching the image for some time. I have not yet verified or tested in with real circuitry. I would, however, like to do so as soon as I have got time.

Good luck with your own experiments,
Stefan
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon Codex » 24 Jul 2017, 02:24

Ohh.. I see my error now, thanks Stefan. I thought it had one relay. Yes, I can see how it can be done with 2 h4RB relays.

This picture show my attempt using one h4RB relay and one h4GB Elecktronik-Grundbaustein. I have another h4GB relay and will try it later when I get home. Thanks for your help :D

Michael
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InclineElevatorOneRelay.jpg
One Relay
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon steffalk » 24 Jul 2017, 15:28

Hello Michael,

here https://ft-datenbank.de/details.php?Art ... bd023c6bd8 on page 13 we can see that they actually used *2* buttons, one underneath each relay. So I guess the original model was quite simple: Each button just shortcut one of the self-inhibiting relays, one for up, one for down.

However, let's keep trying using only 1 button to achieve both movements without further electric components!

Best Regards,
Stefan
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon Codex » 26 Jul 2017, 05:37

Hi Stefan,

here https://ft-datenbank.de/details.php?Art ... bd023c6bd8 on page 13 we can see that they actually used *2* buttons, one underneath each relay. So I guess the original model was quite simple: Each button just shortcut one of the self-inhibiting relays, one for up, one for down.


Yes, I have that original catalog and used the picture on page 13 to built it, so I have 2 buttons on my model. I am trying to get it to work with 2 buttons, no luck so far.

I also found this https://ft-datenbank.de/details.php?ArticleVariantId=26c192f6-c292-44ba-b464-e943fbc91277 page 62, it is using 2 relays, 2 h4G and one switch. I will try this without the h4G.

Michael
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon steffalk » 26 Jul 2017, 10:00

Hi Michael,

that circuit on page 62 is exactly what I meant, just that they use a h4G as an amplifier in addition. Why no luck? What's the problem?

Regards,
Stefan
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon Codex » 26 Jul 2017, 15:21

Hi Stefan,

I have it working as per the diagram on page 62 using the two additional h4G and one switch. It stop at the bottom of the incline, starts going up when you press the button, and when it reaches the top and breaks the light beam it reverses and travels back down.

One side of the PB switch is connected to the A1 output and the side of the PB switch is connected to the diode at pin 1 on the h4G, this blocks the relay Y from reactivating when the carriage reverses back out of the top light beam.

Took a little bit of thinking that I had to use the diode. :)

I have still not worked out a solution with using the two relays and two PB switches.

Thanks
Michael.
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon steffalk » 30 Jul 2017, 23:33

Hello Michael,

I have also built that model - couldn't refuse ;-) I have a working version using original hardware, that is, 2 h4RB relays and 2 buttons. Works fine, including that you may press whatever button you want during transfer - it won't change anything. If the wagon is driving, nothing but the light barrier at the end will stop it. At the end positions, only the button for driving to the other end will do something.

As extensions, I have attached two lamps at the ends, one for each direction. They will light up whenever the motor is turning in "their" direction as a warning light.

Also, one of the good old 8-step rotary switches (from e-m1 or hobby-3) is used to turn on none, each single, or both end positions to auto-turn. That is, you can set at which end(s) you want the wagon to automatically reverse, including full auto-mode in both directions.

The one thing for which I am looking for improvement is that in auto-mode, the relays snare for just some milliseconds.

I will have the model with me at the Convention in Dreieich in September. Will you join us there with your version?

Best Regards,
Stefan
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon Codex » 02 Aug 2017, 08:59

Hi Stefan,

Wow nice job on the extensions.

I been thinking about some sort of mechanical tilt unload-er for the tilting bucket or a crane.

My relay logic with 2 light beams, 2 h4RB and 2 switch is also working fine now.

I would really like to go to the Convention in Dreieich in September and bring some of my models too, can't do it this year. Not enough time to organise a trip from Australia to Germany. I will see about next year.
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon steffalk » 02 Aug 2017, 18:08

Hello Michael,

oh, Australia. OK ;-)

I was also experimenting with a simple mechanic for clearing the bucket at the lower end. We'll see!

Best Regards,
Stefan
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon steffalk » 18 Okt 2017, 16:14

Hello again,

@Codex/Michael: If you are still reading here, you might want to have a look at https://www.ftcommunity.de/categories.php?cat_id=3466. "Tal" is the valley in German, "Berg" ist the hill. "Talfahrt" means "drive into the valley", "Bergfahrt" means "drive up the hill".

Best Regards,
Stefan
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon Codex » 19 Okt 2017, 02:37

Yes, I still visiting ftc. Nice pictures. I also watched the youtube videos of the Dreieich Convention and saw your model. Good Work :D
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon steffalk » 19 Okt 2017, 11:10

Hello Michael,

what circuit did you use in your model?

Regards,
Stefan
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Re: Incline Elevator

Beitragvon Codex » 01 Dez 2017, 02:16

Here is my circuit. Attached. It is as per the original 1975 design.
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InclinedElevator.png
Inclined Elevator Circuit
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